LGBT+ History Month: David Mann MBE and Saleem Fazal MBE, Freehold Founders

1) Tell us something about your professional career so far

David: I left school in 1986 with average A levels in Economics, Design & Technology and Art then achieved an equally average 2:2 BSc (Hons) in Building Surveying at Leicester Polytechnic. It was a well-respected course and I graduated with two job offers, one at Watts & Partners, the other at Weatherall Green & Smith. I joined Watts in 1989, which was the right choice, not only because of the excellent training I received but there was the worst recession I’ve ever experienced and WGS made their entire graduate intake redundant.

I passed my APC, or TPC as it was in those days, and enjoyed a broad and interesting workload including once surveying the Tower of London escorted by my own personal Beefeater!

Saleem:  I trained as a lawyer at the firm now known as Eversheds Sutherland and joined Taylor Wessing in 2004.  I became a partner and head of Real Estate Disputes in 2005.  In 2019, I took the additional role of opening our Liverpool office which has since grown to 160 people. I now split my time between the two offices and have a very different role in each which keeps me on my toes!

2) What attracted you to surveying/built environment as an industry to work in?

S: During my training as a lawyer, I was immediately inspired by the fast-moving pace of real estate and development.   That's what led me to specialise in real estate disputes dealing with development issues (including rights to light).   To see a derelict building turned into something that turned heads and became a great place to work or shop was very rewarding.    Over time, I have learnt that development is not forever, and that people's needs change – that's what keeps us all busy.

D: I’d worked as a labourer on building sites during school holidays with my brother-in-law and watched him skilfully lay bricks, whilst I lugged them around the site. The whole process of seeing a house being built fascinated me. But I felt I wasn’t hardy enough and could not cope with the building site banter to want to join ‘the tools’ full-time, so building surveying was perfect, giving me the satisfaction of building places where people live, work, and play whilst also having a proportion of my time in a cosy office.

3) How do you make an impact in your daily work?

D:  Besides supporting RICS with conferences and developing standards, I set up Freehold, a networking and support forum for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender real estate professionals working within the real estate sector in 2011, with Saleem. I hid my sexuality and led a double life for the first 20 years of my career, and my hope is that no one in the UK and eventually globally will ever have to do that again – it’s exhausting! Freehold has changed my life and it is so humbling when people come up to me at our events and say it’s helped them to be themselves at work.

S: I help clients achieve their ambitions by guiding them through tricky real estate issues particularly in the development sphere, consistent with Taylor Wessing values.

This means that I encourage and train the younger generation not only in relation to their legal work but more importantly, life skills. Without that broader outlook, formal training is without real value. This includes understanding the importance of diversity in our people and appreciating that there are alternative routes which might lead to the same destination but may be for some a more comfortable ride.

This also encompasses challenging existing approaches and ensuring that what we do currently remains best practice.  This is no different to real estate development; we cannot stand still and be complacent.

4) You were both honoured in King Charles III’s inaugural New Year Honours List for 2022-23, in recognition of the work Freehold has done in making the British real estate sector more inclusive for LGBTQ+ professionals. How did it feel to receive this honour, and what’s next for Freehold?

S: As I wasn’t aware of our nomination, I felt complete shock! When I started reading the letter, the words started blurring and all I could register was "King" "Prime Minister" and "Cabinet Office." We owe this honour to the past and existing Freehold Board and also the Freehold sponsors who have equipped us to make such an impact.

Under the stewardship of the new Co-Chairs, Kelly Canterford and Scott Parsons, Freehold is going from strength to strength. There is still much to achieve across the industry and Freehold is very well placed with its powerful voice and platform to help achieve that objective.

D: I still can’t believe it. Saleem and I were so surprised to get the letter from the Cabinet Office in late November, we called each other to make sure it wasn’t a joke and have to say, we frequently tear up at the honour. It’s been a fantastic and fun journey, as Saleem said, but we owe so much to many people including the past and present Freehold Board, our members, and allies such as professional Institutions, corporate sponsors and supporters and the property press.

During our tenure, I would say Freehold’s priority was to try and improve the life of those LGBTQ+ people already in property and construction. We also engaged with other minority groups to improve inclusivity generally. Now the focus needs to be encouraging more diversity and engage with schools and colleges to highlight that real estate is a welcoming and very rewarding career choice for everyone.

5) What is your advice to the next generation of real estate professionals?

D: Always aim to leave the industry in a better state than when you joined it. Get involved with RICS, networking and industry groups and charities. There are such great people in real estate and the more influence you have, the more rewarding your life will be. It is not just a job, it’s a professional career that can be a force for good, especially with the current focus on Environment Social and Governance.

S: Our clients are diverse, and so we must think in the same way as them to really tune in to their needs. Otherwise, you are narrowing your market and your appeal. But overall, find something you enjoy, and you are sure to have a good time!

RICS is part of a group of membership bodies in the built environment sector who have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) to drive forward the creation of a more diverse, equitable and inclusive sector - ensuring it is more representative of the society it serves.